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Real estate industry seeks to quell fears

Globe and Mail Update

The real estate industry has gone into damage-control mode to try to quell fears Canada's housing market could enter into a U.S.-style freefall.

Industry representatives held a conference call Thursday to challenge a recent report by Merrill Lynch Canada Inc. that made headlines by suggesting Canada's housing market could be heading for the same perils as that of the United States.

“We want to draw attention to the fact that despite some recent stories that suggest the Canadian housing market is heading for a crash similar to the States, that just isn't in the cards,” Gregory Klump, chief economist at the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA), said on the call.

The Merrill report created a stir, even prompting Prime Minister Stephen Harper to weigh in with the view Canada's housing and construction markets remain stronger than those of the U.S.

In a follow-up note Merrill economists David Wolf and Carolyn Kwan said they were not predicting a catastrophe for Canada like the one playing out in much of the United States, but chided anyone who is overlooking the market's risks.

“Given the emerging lessons of the U.S. and U.K. crises, and given the parallels that we believe exist in Canada, we cannot understand how one can dismiss the risk that an adverse feedback loop between the housing market and the financial sector could produce a rather worse outcome for both, in Canada, than the sanguine consensus currently expects,” they said in the follow-up report.

However, Bank of Nova Scotia economist Derek Holt said that while his company has been more bearish on the economy than many others, it had to “draw the line” when it came to the mounting fears about the health of Canada's housing market.

“I certainly don't want to be painted as the optimist .... It's just that we draw the line in terms of making any parallels with the U.S. banking and mortgage market experience,” Mr. Holt said on the call.

Scotiabank expects a continued downturn in the housing market, including a further decrease in construction and resale home sales activity, he added.

Low mortgage rates and more prudent lending regulations have helped prevent Canada from a U.S.-style meltdown, Jim Murphy, president of the Canadian Association of Accredited Mortgage Professionals, said on the call.

This includes the pending elimination of 40-year and zero-down payment mortgages when the government pulls its backing for these products on Oct. 15, he added.

In June, the average price of a resale home in Canada slipped for the first time year-over-year in more than nine years. Since then, the price declines have spread from Alberta into Vancouver and Toronto, causing fear the slowdown is now reflecting weaker economic conditions in addition to overshooting on price.

The Canadian market can't be painted with a broad brush, and varies widely not just by province and city, but even from community to community, Ann Bosley, vice-president of Toronto-based Bosley Real Estate Ltd., said on the call.

Parts of Toronto subject to big price run-ups and bidding wars last year, for example, are cooling more than other areas where price increases were more moderate, she said.

Real estate agents at Bosley have been fighting off misconceptions the Canadian market is currently mimicking that of the U.S., she said.

“My brokerage had calls saying ‘I want to buy a foreclosure.' I said ‘That's nice, go to Buffalo,'” Ms. Bosley said.

 

  1. Patriots in 2008 from Toronto, Canada writes: Wait a little longer when the credit crunch hits us full force and nobody can get a mortgage because banks are too afraid to lend to people. THEN let's see how the housing market performs. There's probably less than 1% of the population who can afford to buy a house without taking out a mortgage. Also, those who CAN afford to buy a house in cash have now had their stocks wiped out, so they don't have any equities to sell for the house, either. Good luck!
  2. CallofDuty . from Toronto, Canada writes: Anybody see the massive condo project at Youge street and Bloor? They stopped working? Why is that?
  3. Jane Smith from Vancouver, Canada writes: It's a little difficult to ignore what is happening in Vancouver currently. Real estate inventory is the highest it has been in 20 years. Sales of condos and single family homes are down by >60%. The speculators are out of the market because prices are no longer going up. People are trying to get out of their presale condo contracts. Condo projects are mysteriously burning to the ground. However, builders keep building, even though demand has basically fallen off a cliff. Even though interest rates are at all time lows, and could go lower, the price of condos and single family home is just simply too high. Of course, the real estate industry is going to put on a brave face, but the statistics speak for themselves.
  4. bill k from Canada writes: Real estate industry working overtime trying to spin what little they have left. The housing market is starting to crash and nothing the spin doctors can do to stop it. Home sales have fallen and inventory continues to rise. Prices are dropping and those who bought last year are underwater by an average of $30,000. The crash is going to get worse much like the stock market.
  5. Jay MO from Canada writes: Anybody that thinks we are immune to what is going on in the world today bought into the notion of de-coupling. In this era of globalization no country is an island, and we will all suffer from an American recession. Housing will be hit and hit hard in the regios that saw astronomical yoy growth in prices. Look at the situation in Vancouver, sales are at historical lows, and unsold inventory has NEVER been higher. If I've learned anything, it's that you don't trust a used car salesman to give you a straight answer about that used pos on the lot....
  6. Soft Landing from Toronto, Canada writes: I don't understand why eliminating 40yr 0 down, which was still praised as 'innovative' 2 months ago, now a 'more prudent lending regulation'. Are these guys slaping their own faces or what?
  7. Dave C from Canada writes: The Real Estate Industry and all of it's market pumping shills are a bunch of fools. These idiots were the same ones that predicted that prices would continue to go up and that there was no Bubble forming in Canada. This is utter Hogwash and BS which they use to continue to sucker poor individuals and families into buying at some of the most ridiculous price levels in history. They scared so many people into buying at price levels that could only be described as robbery in the Western markets by their 'buy now or be priced out forever' and 'Get in before it's too late' BS.

    Alberta and BC Real Estate prices are at least 50% overpriced. If you buy at these levels you will lose money, guaranteed!!!!!! They do not care about your finances or your families finances, all they care about is making a sale off of you.

    Quit listening to their BS advice which is only for their own benefit and start using your own common sense!!! If a house that sold for 150K in Edmonton 4 years ago is now selling for 350K, guess what, you will probably lose 200K when the price comes crashing back to earth.........or worse!!
  8. A S from Toronto, Canada writes: Wow - Ms. Bosley tells foreclosure seekers to go to Buffalo. Hope, for her sake, she can be that brave a year from now. I don't think anyone wants the market to collapse (at least I hope not) but prices in Toronto are nuts. I look forward to seeing prices (hopefully) cool down a bit.
  9. Marv M from Canada writes: 'Real estate industry seeks to quell fears'

    Now that's funny. The same industry that uses fear and scare tactics to sell houses is now trying to calm fears so they can, guess what, sell houses!
  10. Soft Landing from Toronto, Canada writes: 40 yr 0 down is actually pretty 'innovative' when you think about it. Thousands of those who would better without it are now finding themselves under water.

    The world have learned their lesson and we will not see another real estate boom for a long long time.
  11. Former 2 Time CIBC Staffer from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Gregory Klump has no credibility... According to this Mr Klump, a potential recession in the United States would actually have been beneficial to Canadian Real Estate prices. This is what he told ctv.ca back in January of this year...

    ' even if the U.S. does slip into a recession, there's no guarantee Canada's strong real estate market will lose any steam. In fact it might do the opposite, Klump said. That's because prospects for softer economic growth -- which is 'the current sentiment in financial markets and the Bank of Canada' -- usually prompt the central bank to lower interest rates, which can make home ownership more affordable and more attractive, Klump said.'

    Mr. Klump is an 'economist' in the way Jim Stanford does the same job for the CAW... merely to give lobby groups a patina of academic credibility.
  12. Not on this Blog from Montreal, Canada writes: 'The world have learned their lesson and we will not see another real estate boom for a long long time.' Sadly, you are probably wrong - I don't know how many times I have sat down with bankers/ politicans and told them they are on their way to, or in, a housing bubble, but it's always 'different this time'
  13. Aloha Eric from Toronto, Canada writes: Gregory Klump, chief economist of the CREA is in good company with his housing forecast.

    He shares the same forecast for the real estate market as the chief economists of some of the largest and most sophisticated financial institutions in the world, namely the economists from Bear Stearns, IndyMac, Lehman Bros, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Merrill Lynch, Washington Mutual, and Wachovia.
  14. If I had a million lobsters from Halifax, Canada writes: It's so funny i can't even comment. I must be bad for me to have nothing to say. Unbelievable truly unbelievable. Got some nice land out here you CREA guys if you want to put it on the market for 100 times what it's worth and call it a treasure to behold oops i wasn't gonna say anything
  15. If I had a million lobsters from Halifax, Canada writes: Bosley says to go to buffalo. I know why - she wants all the foreclosures for herself to flip.
  16. Big 'Ol Johnny from Toronto, Canada writes: I've read all the comments here and it is terrrific to see that the people reading this article aren't fooled by the lack of integrity or foolishness of the industry insiders.
  17. Brian Broda from Hawkestone, Ontario, Canada writes: The US contagion WILL spread to Canada.

    I expect that the condo I wanted to buy in Toronto will be a real deal, perhaps a foreclosure sale, sometime between April and June of 2009. Waiting on teh sidelines.
  18. Pseudo Nim from Calgary, Canada writes: I'm one of those previously ready first home buyers who likely will have to wait another 6 months. While I always anticipate stock market corrections in October, I didn't expect Wall Street to open a wormhole to the next dimension. I have a hunch I'm not the only in these shoes. No real worry, it's not like prices keep going up. :)
  19. bert bruno from Toronto, Canada writes: Ok
    So I can now see that almost all of the above posters are
    experts in the Real Estate industry so lets get started.
    If most of you had your money in the stock market holding shares I guess you are trying to exact a toll or even the score on the rest of us home owners that haven't lost a dame thing, because we live in our homes not in your brokers office.

    Or is it that you are all shorting REITs or what ever other type of Real Estate stock market instrument and are desperately trying to cause mayhem so as to haul in your profits.

    Or are you renters, or trailer park dwellers that have been sitting on the fence to buy for so long that a generation has passed you by and your pissed off at the rest of the world.

    One last point, some of the biggest profiteers in the
    United States today are those that shorted anything connected to Real Estate in the stock markets.

    What's the difference between you people and a catfish?
    One is scum sucking bottom feeder and the other is a fish.
    So now your exposed, which one of the above are you
    A) all of the above
    or
    B) is it a fish........
  20. Carl Hansen from Canada writes: Remember when you could buy a whole city block of buildings for one gold coin? Those were the days.
  21. Big 'Ol Johnny from Toronto, Canada writes: If you want to get a sense for how much residential real estate is going to decline in price in Toronto, just read bert bruno's comments! Yup, it ain't gonna be pretty!

    Hey....bert...or anyone else.....did you know that the value of homes fell by 90% in the Great Depression???? Yuppperdooooo......it is really easy to calculate....take the current value of you house and, well, remove the last number. I'm not saying this is going to happen now, but it is an interesting statistic.

    Here's a little formula that should describe how the following people will fare over the next few years. (10 is the best, 0 is the worst):

    No mortgage, no other debt, lots of savings 10
    small mortgage, no other debt, some savings 7
    large mortgage, some other debt, no savings 4
    huge mortgage, lots of other debt, negative savings 2
    bert (whatever his financial situation is) 0

    tick tick tick tick tick.........
  22. Marv M from Canada writes: ' bert bruno from Toronto, Canada writes: Ok
    So I can now see that almost all of the above posters are
    experts in the Real Estate industry so lets get started.
    If most of you had your money in the stock market holding shares I guess you are trying to exact a toll or even the score on the rest of us home owners that haven't lost a dame thing, because we live in our homes not in your brokers office............Or are you renters, or trailer park dwellers that have been sitting on the fence to buy for so long that a generation has passed you by and your pissed off at the rest of the world.'

    ______________________________________________________

    Gee Bert, you sound kind of angry for a home owner? That leads me to believe that you either paid way too much for your place or you are stuck with properties that you can't Flip, in other words there are no more 'greater fools' lining up to off load grossly overpriced Real Estate on?
  23. Pacific Volcano from Ottawa, Canada writes: A lot clear minds here. Real Estate is very cyclical by nature. It was almost time for adjustment after 10 years of boom, even without this financial storm. Now it is just time.
  24. ALASTAIR JAMES BERRY from Nanaimo BC, Canada writes:
    When the BREAD LINES form and the SOUP KITCHENS are besieged by armies of unemployed workers house prices are bound to fall..............wait 6 months and in the middle of winter house prices WILL collapse!

    This depression is world wide and has been growing blacker by the day OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS!! CANADA CANNOT ESCAPE IT'S MALIGNE INFLUENCE .................Up Beat PROJECTIONS LOOK REDICULOUS in the face of stark reality.

    But you think POLITICIANS (or Real Estate Brokers) will ever release BAD NEWS?..........................IT MIGHT PANIC THE PUBLIC, for goodness sake!!
  25. Bob Cajun from Canada writes: well when prices go beyond 4-5 times the average household income, that is when they become unstable (e.g Vancouver). In other words, the fancier the house, the bigger the collapse. Meanwhile, prices for starter homes will remain relatively stale by comparison.
  26. Former 2 Time CIBC Staffer from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Bert... Sorry to disappoint you... I've been a homeowner in Toronto and Ottawa since 1999 and sold out in 2006. I've been sitting in cash ever since... Prices here were ridiculous and wouldn't buy despite the duress placed on me by my lovely bride. I don't live in a trailer... I live in a beautiful rented heritage home for a heck of alot less it would cost me if I owned this pile... I'm not a bitter renter... just a patient one...
  27. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Looking at a similar market with few dodgy mortgages might be a clue to how things unwind in most of Canada ... witness the US Pacific Northwest, which is having soft landing compared to the rest of their country. The big issue is affordability, or lack thereof. And getting a mortgage is tough when the credit markets are nearly frozen.
  28. bert bruno from Toronto, Canada writes: To Former 2 Time CIBC Staffer
    That's cool wait til you think the price is right, why would I be disappointed? But carpet bombing with fear mongering is what I have an issue with. I bought my house in the early 80s and paid off my mortgage through rough times because I didn't treat it like a roulette wheel. Its where I raised my kids.
    Remember what you all are wishing, For with the same hand giveth the other hand taketh and you will all get it back in spades because with bad times comes more crimes.
    Besides that is the environment you wish to purchase.......???
    Buyers market or a balanced market is good a good market but no market and you, me and everyone is fcuked
    Whatever
    Out
  29. Torondo Sensei from Calgary, Canada writes: It is interesting to note (and this is not yet widely reported outside of Scandinavia) that on Monday last week the Kaupthing Bank of Iceland sent out an email to all their customers assuring everyone that 'The fundamentals are solid....[snip] we have no need of assistance from the government,... [snip] we are financially solid, blah blah blah', signed Director of Information Jonas Sigurgeirsson. Today, this bank collapsed.
  30. The Dude from Calgary, Canada writes: Yeh, do the real estate associations ever say anything other than what protects or increases prices of homes?

    After all, all their agents (whether buying or selling agents) benefit from higher real estate prices.
  31. tim johnson from Ottawa, Canada writes: I hope people are not fooled by this attempt by the Real Estate industry to get people to buy houses. Notice there was no mention to the financial markets imploding around us for the last month or so. Alot of money in the stock market and mutual funds has been vaporized in the stock market crash. If this money is no longer there, how will people come up with a large down payment. They won't be able to, thus driving down the price of the houses they can buy. There is going to be a deep recession in the US for the next few years. There will also be a recession in Japan and Europe. Do these people think that there will not be an effect on Canada? Of course there will be. There will be a lot of lost jobs in Canada as Canada is part of the world economy and everything is interrelated, especially with its large trading partners. Credit is very tight, and unless you have a very high credit rating > 750, I doubt you will be able to get a mortgage at a reasonable rate. After the housing prices drop, all of those people who bought a house with 0 down and 40 year mortgages will be under water in terms of the value of their house versus the mortgage. What do you think they will do if they get into financial trouble? Another thing that will happen is that people who are retired will suddenly see the value of their investments vaporized meaning they may be forced to sell their houses because what ever is left of their capital is not enough to live on. I think Merrill Lynch was right and I would not be surprised to see a 25% drop in housing prices here in Ottawa in the next year. Housing prices go down alot faster than they go up, especially when there are foreclosures. It brings down the comparables in a neighbourhood when some houses become foreclosures. The housing prices are too high here when you consider the incomes of people have not been going up at the same rate. I would advise anybody thinking of buying a house to wait at least two years.
  32. The Dude from Calgary, Canada writes: I guess the real estate industry's biggest fear is to have buyers evaporate from the market. At this point I'm sure that is what is guiding their behaviour.

    No buyers, no market. No market or small market, declining need for real estate agents.

    Ah well, they had their feast (grossly overpriced houses selling quickly) and now it's time for the famine. After 2 recent real estate transactions where I felt like I got very little value for what I paid the real estate industry, I can't say I'm feeling at all bad for those ****ers.
  33. c j from Canada writes: here is a great article written in the NY Times a couple years ago. This is what many places in Canada are getting into. Yoshihisa Nakashima in front of his condominium building in the suburb of Kashiwa, far from his government job in Tokyo. His apartment is worth half of what he paid 14 years ago, during the real estate bubble. December 25, 2005 New York Times Take It From Japan: Bubbles Hurt By MARTIN FACKLER KASHIWA, Japan FOURTEEN years ago, Yoshihisa Nakashima looked at this sleepy suburb an hour and 20 minutes from downtown Tokyo and saw all the trappings of middle-class Japanese bliss: cherry-tree-lined roads, a cozy community where neighbors greeted one another in the morning and schools within easy walking distance for his two daughters. So Mr. Nakashima, a Tokyo city government employee who was then 36, took out a loan for almost the entire $400,000 price of a cramped four-bedroom apartment. With property values rising at double-digit rates, he would easily earn back the loan and then some when he decided to sell. Or so he thought. Not long after he bought the apartment, Japan's property market collapsed. Today, the apartment is worth half what he paid. He said he would like to move closer to the city but cannot: the sale price would not cover the $300,000 he still owes the bank. full article (post 18) scroll down it is well worth the read as this is bubble history. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=288873
  34. Paul Downey from Ardrossan, Canada writes: The meek shal inherate the earth
  35. pants 7 from Japan writes: Real estate prices will adjust to the long term average multiple of income, but will dip down below before they average out again.
    It does not matter if you rent or own, housing is an expense not an investment over the long term.
  36. Binder Dundat from Toronto, Canada writes:
    My rent (nice old house, excellent Toronto neighbourhood) is still $500 a month cheaper than the mortgage payments I've calculated I'd be making if I bought a comparable house on the block. Not counting upkeep/renovations, not counting property taxes.  The smart money is banking the savings and waiting.

Original Article

Published Friday, October 10, 2008 7:15 AM by Glen Godlonton

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